By Stevie Adams / in , , , /

[MUSIC] Okay, hi everybody. And thank you for coming today. It’s my pleasure to invite
here today Aaron Stanton, Marialice Kern who are coming
from the VR Institute of Health and Exercise and also from the
San Francisco State University. I think they have a very
interesting background. Aaron worked on classifying
ebooks in an automatic way. Their tool was widely
used globally and later was acquired by Apple. And he is now focusing on
a different type of content. He is looking at VR and
how can we classify VR. He found out, and Marialice
joined in that effort that virtual reality can
be a sort of a gym. Some of the activities that
we perform there are very exercise-like. And in particular, they were
looking at these Audiosheld game, in which people have been
playing for over 700,000 hours. So they have developed
this tool to explore in a more methodological way how
many calories are you actually burning in VR. I think this talk also gains
a bit more of attention these days. We are seeing how content in VR,
it’s hard to classify. And I think it’s interesting,
this effort. So I am happy to have them here. Thank you for coming.>>Thank you. Thank you very much. So, I’m gonna start in
a second by introducing Dr. Kern as well because we actually
built into our presentation, our introductions and so
I’ll go that direction as well. But, I’m gonna start by
saying I’m not a very good presenter, but I like to think I’m a relatively
decent conversationalist. So I would appreciate it
actually if you guys have questions, feel free
to interject and ask. And if you guys don’t mind,
can I ask you to move forward so that we’re all close enough that
we can be more conversationalist like. It will help my nerves. Only work on the laptops. That’s fine. But this is actually something
that’s, a lot of what this conversation’s gonna
be about is social norms. And things like where
you sit in the room and how that interacts social with,
how that affects social interactions is
fascinating to me. So I think it’s very fascinating
that nobody is natural for a row except for us. [LAUGH] So
my name is Aaron Stanton and Dr. Kern if you like to talk about
your background at all or do you feel
the introduction was.>>I’m fine with that.>>Okay. Okay.>>And if you want to know specifics, I’d be more
than happy to tell you. I just, you know Department
chair of Thesiology at San Fransisco State. And professor in the area
of Exercise Physiology. That’s my specialization
>>And then my background, as already
was covered really pretty well, is my career hasn’t been largely
focused on the intersection between storytelling and
technology. So I was a video game writer and editor at the New York Times
company for several years. And then with Book Lamp which
was the company that was being talked about earlier. It was applying machine learning
of big data to extraction of meta information for the full
text of book via computers. And then now, VR is another
form of intersection between storytelling and
technology. So that’s where I approach this
from but possibly my biggest qualification for the
conversation today, is that I do something that most people don’t
do right at the moment, but I think will change overtime. Which is I get up on
a regular basis and I exercise in the morning
in Virtual Reality. So that’s part of what
we’re here to talk about. We both work with the Virtual
Reality Institute of Health and Exercise, which exists to create
rating systems for Video games, VR games, based upon
the amount of calorie or energy burn that you expect
during a typical play. But we’re talking about it
from two different angles. One is, why this needs to exist? Why are we doing this? And another one that is
kinda what we’re doing. What are we finding in the data? So, about a month ago,
we launched this website which is intended to
publish these ratings. So, if you are familiar with
the ESRB ratings, like E is for everyone or like movie Ratings,
like R rated movies. The VR exercise ratings are
designed to be somewhat similar, at least based on a similar
concept, except we’re looking at the content of, to figure out
if it’s appropriate by age. We’re looking at it by saying,
in the average minute of typical play, how many calories
can you expect to burn? One of the issues that we’ve
run into a lot of times is people don’t have a very good
mile markers, or milestones, for figuring out where exactly they
are in the exercise spectrum. Especially in VR,
which as you’ll learn, we’re finding people
don’t report that they’re aware of the amount of exercise
they’re actually getting. And so afterwards when you ask
them how much they think they did, they’re not very accurate. And so what we’re trying to do,
and the whole purpose of the rating system is to
take virtual exercise and equate it to real world
known forms of exercise. So when Dr. Kern talks a little more about
how we’re actually going through in calculating the energy
consumption of novel exercises. She’ll talk more
about that in detail. But in general, if in the lab
we see somebody exerting effort that is equivalent of being
on an elliptical then we rate that game as
an elliptical equivalent. The majority of games, certainly the majority
of traditional games and the majority of seated VR, still
qualify in the resting category. Right, this can be fun,
it can be engaging, it can be social, but
not a lot of movement. On the end of the spectrum,
especially over games that are designed for room scale of
VR, what we can find is there’s actually quite a bit of
movement, or can be. Unofficially, I estimate that
roughly 30% of room scale games are equipped to elliptical
equivalent or better. I can’t say that definitively
because we haven’t rated all of them yet. But just judging from the types
of games that tend to score in that range and the kind of
games that are coming out and what we think. And the highest rated
game in our system, a boxing game called Thrill of
the Fight, actually not only scores higher in the metabolic
score than traditional boxing… But actually our competitive
is equivalent to sprinting which is one
of the higher exercise difficulties that we measure,
so. But why do we measure this, is
what I wanna start with, right. Why does the VR health
institute need to exist at all? And why is this relevant? Are you raising your hand? Cool. Sweet. Go ahead.
>>[LAUGH]>>So if in a horror game, your heart is racing, there’s
a flight or fight response, is that burning
calories significantly?>>Dr. Kern,
do you wanna answer?>>Could you repeat
the question so->>Yeah, the question was, if you’re playing a horror game,
and your heart rate is accelerated
because you’re scared, is that also burning calories?>>That’s a good question and that was one of the things
that actually, I think, brought Aaron to the lab
to try and get this. You can see that’s just
an adrenaline kind of surge, your oxygen consumption
is gonna go up, but it’s not the same as if you were
out running around the track. So we actually are measuring how much oxygen you can consume
during that kind of an activity. So we could disassociate
the heart rate from an adrenaline response
from actual oxygen consumption associated
with metabolic data.>>So if it it’s sitting
game but it’s a horror game, your heart isn’t racing, would you still rate that
as a resting [INAUDIBLE]?>>No, it’s still gonna
be a little more. You’re still breathing heavy and
doing things. But it’s not gonna be equated to
probably what your heart rate is if you were out running at that
heart rate because you have all those muscles moving.>>Yeah.
>>So, what we measure is actually
the effect of that muscle contraction. And consuming the oxygen
associated with that.>>Are you also gonna talk
a little bit about how you quantified all that?>>We’re gonna do it.>>Okay, cool.>>[LAUGH]
>>[INAUDIBLE] And it makes me so happy that
you asked about that because it means we planned
the right thing. [LAUGH] Yeah, to kind of
reiterate that slightly, so the heart rate is, and
correct me if I’m wrong, my background is in
psychology actually, in industrial
organizational psychology. I’m not the expert in
the physiology side of things. But heart rate is a fairly good
indirect measure in the right circumstances. But the things that affect heart
rate are not just calorie burn. So we can say this,
when we have rated these games, if there’s a game that’s rated
high, as a high calorie burner, or high consumer of energy, then that is independent
of the emotional state. That’s purely driven off of
what you’re actually consuming. But yeah, it is possible to
be playing a game that’s very exciting and engaging and
not be moving around much and have it kind of be
a false predictor. So before we get to that, which
I’m excited to get to as well, but I wanted to talk
a little bit why we do this. And why the considerations that
we’re trying to address with the VR Health Institute are
things that make a technology option successful or
not successful sometimes. And when companies like
Microsoft have a mission. So my background, like I said, is in Industrial
Organizational Psychology. It’s what I studied
in university, and for a long time, I’ve been very
fascinated with how social norms impact the adoption
curve of technology. And so, one of my favorite
examples of this is very small, but it’s very directly observed
so I like it, which is so I was working at Apple when
the Apple Watch was introduced. And Apple’s very much a company
that eats its own dog food, and so the people I worked with we
all didn’t have Apple Watches. And if you think about what one
of the roles the Apple Watch is for is it helps you kind of
a discreet way of receiving messages and kinda be aware of
what’s going on around you. Without actually getting
your phone out and disrupting the person
you’re talking to. The problem with this
is that we already have social cues in our society for
this, right? If you do a search for
impatient on any search engine, you very quickly find
out what that cue is. So if you take ten
people in a room, give then watches when
they haven’t had watches, then attach a device to it that
pings them as a message device every five times an hour, what
you have is an entire room that feels very impatient,
very rushed. And so, in some respects,
I actually honestly believe for the first month after
the Apple Watch came out, our meetings got shorter. [LAUGH] Because everybody
was doing this all the time, and it’s a signal that we do for
impatience, right? VR has a sort of
kinda impact as well. This is another one that I
thought was interesting. So a few months ago,
I was flying out here. And historically, my background
is in more of the higher end VR units, like the Oculus Rift or
the HTC Vive. And I was not very experienced
with the mobile component of things. So, I wanted to change this and
so I went down to the store and I bought a Galaxy 8 and
I bought a Daydream. And I decided that I was
going to watch a movie in a virtual movie theater
on the flight I had, which happened to be coming
out here to Seattle. And so I did this and two things happened that I
thought were very amusing. One was that when I actually
got to the point sitting in the seat at the window with
two people sitting next to me. When I actually got to the point
where I had to get this thing out and put it on my face,
I felt so uncomfortable. And I remember turning
to the person and saying something like,
I wanna apologize. I’ve got this new cool thing,
I’m gonna try it out here. But it’s gonna be
a little weird. I’m not trying to be antisocial,
[LAUGH] and the amount of pressure I felt socially to not do
that was very interesting. The second thing is I was
curious to see how the flight attendants treated me, right? So the flight attendants
are trained when a passenger is distracted with different
levels of interaction. So if I’m watching a movie
with headsets on and they come by with
the food service, they’ll get your attention. But if you’re asleep,
they let you sleep, right? And I was curious which social
norm would kinda be triggered with somebody with a thing
strapped on their face, totally disconnect,
clearly awake. But totally disconnected from
the surrounding environment. And it turns out, if you’re
using VR on the plane, you do not get food and you do not get
drink, so just so you know. If you’re curious about, and I’m
gonna play this video here in a second probably cuz
it’s interesting, but also it illustrates a point. If you want to experience
the level of discomfort that I was experiencing on the plane, good news is you don’t
have to do it yourself. I have actually experienced
this exact feeling before. And it was back in college after
learning about the elevator studies and I went and tried it. And the elevator studies back
in the 60s were about group conformity. And the way you do it,
if you wanna feel this, is you to go to an elevator, you
go in, and you face backwards. So face the back wall and
then don’t move, no matter who gets on, right? And after about 30 seconds, by the time the second person
gets on, you will feel really, really weird. So let me show you a video they
did of this back in the day, which I though was-
>>The gentlemen in the elevator now
is a candid star. These folks who are entering,
the man with a white shirt, the lady with a trench coat, and subsequently one other member of
our staff, will face the rear. And you’ll see how this
man in the trench coat.>>[LAUGH]
>>Tries to maintain his individuality.>>[LAUGH]
>>But little by little.>>[LAUGH]
>>He looks at his watch, but
he’s really making an excuse for turning just a little
bit more to the wall. Now we’ll try it once again. Here’s the candid subject. Here comes the candid camera
staff, three of them at least. And this man has apparently
been in groups before.>>[LAUGH]>>Now here’s a fellow with his hat on in the elevator. First, he makes a full
turn to the rear, and Charlie closes the door. A moment later,
we’ll open the door. Everybody’s changed positions.>>[LAUGH] [APPLAUSE] [LAUGH]>>Now we’ll see if we can use->>[LAUGH]>>Now we’ll see if we can use group pressure for
some good. Now, in a moment, on Charlie’s
signal everybody turns forward.>>[LAUGH]
>>Notice they take off their hats.>>[LAUGH]
>>And now do you think we could
reverse the procedure, watch?>>[LAUGH]
>>I feel so terrible for those people. [LAUGH]
>>[LAUGH]>>Because I would feel really uncomfortable in
that environment. I think that this kind of thing
is an interesting example because it shows you
how powerful our group expectations are. And I think that one of
the reasons that when you ask developers in VR and AR Which of
the ones which we conveniently talk about as mixed
reality here, right? That if you ask them which
one they think is gonna be the most likely massive
mainstream adoption, AR regularly hits
the top of the list. They say well when there’s
certain hurdles that are over overcome, AR is
gonna be everywhere. And I think it’s this. I have a hard time playing VR
when somebody’s at home with me. Unless I have a reason not to, like I’m gonna say I’m
gonna go exercise now. I’ll be back in an hour. And I almost have to say,
I’m leaving the room, I’m going to the gym. Because otherwise I can’t sit in
the room when somebody else is in the kitchen and
just block them out. And understating kind of
those impacts is interesting. And I think essential for understanding how people
adopt technology. So, this is how the VR Health
Institute, in a lot of ways, got started. The system that I
use the most for my game play is the HTC Vive. And it’s run on the back end
by something called Steam, which is one of the largest
game distribution platforms on the market. And Steam has a nice
feature that tracks and tells you how many hours
you’ve been playing things. So for most of my life,
this has been a mixed sword, really like a double
edged blade. On one hand, it’s nice to know
if I spent 30 hours playing a game, I spent $40 or
$50 or $60 on. Compared to a movie, that’s a
pretty good investment per hour. On the other hand, it’s kind
depressing, you know that I’ve spent like 300 hours doing
basically nothing [LAUGH] or at least historically it’s been
viewed as basically nothing. But after a while, a few
months after I got my Vive, I realized that I’ve been
playing audiosheild for more than 100 hours. And audioshield is
a rhythm game, all right. So basically you have
a shield in each hand and these balls fly at you and
you have to block them. It involves quite a bit of
moving back and forth and it can, at the higher levels,
can be quite a lot of energy. And so
I remember thinking to myself, I feel like I’m exercising, I
am breathing hard, I’m sweating. If, in fact, this is exercise,
my virtual reality system is by far the most effective exercise
equipment I’ve ever owned. Because I’ve owned
a rowing machine. I’ve owned an elliptical,
and I’ve owned a treadmill, and I promise you I’ve never
spent 100 hours on any of them. Probably, cumulatively, have never spent anything close
to 100 hours on all of them. So let me just really quick show
you a video of when I talk about audioshield, what I
mean in terms of, there you go this guy. So this is the website for
the health institute. Just a little introductory clip,
I’m not gonna play all of it, it’s only two minutes long. But there’s a little
section where it shows me kinda dancing around. And a lot of times when people
talk about exercise and VR, they think of a very
stationary person. And I wanna kind of give
an accurate picture of what I’m talking about. And I apologize for the cheesiness of
some of this [LAUGH]. [MUSIC]>>After I got my first virtual
reality system, I noticed that there was one game that I
played for more than 150 hours. And I’m sweating during this, I was feeling like I
was getting exercise. And a 150 hours-
>>This is Audio Shield.>>Ever used any piece of
exercise equipment ever.>>I don’t know if there’s
any more than that but->>From all the data that we’ve collected here in the lab
I can certainly say that without a doubt that virtual reality
is a form of exercise. We have some games that
focus on tapping out close to their maximal capacity
and enjoying and having fun.>>What we use this trying to
figure out what this persons above resting multiple of
oxygen consumption is. So what you can compare
this to is running outside. How much is this gaming
session equivalent to that sort of thing. When I think of video games, I’ve always thought of this
setting where you’re at home on your couch and
you’re playing this game. That is the vision that I had
throughout all these years of video games, and
kind of being proven wrong. I mean I’ve looked at physiology
and all these other things and of course running you’ll get
exercise, of course rowing and all of these other activities
will give you exercise. But now with the research, we’ve shown virtual reality
games can do just as good.>>The virtual reality
health institute lists eight games based upon how
much exercise they can be. Cuz one of the problems is,
if you really do have a system that helps you burn calories at
a rate that you don’t perceive as being a lot,
when even though it really is. The tendency is to
get done with it and be like,
I didn’t really even exercise. [LAUGH] So you kind of need an
authoritative source to be able to say, yes, in fact,
you did just exercise. That was a healthy thing for
you to do. And you can do it again tomorrow
and feel good about it.>>So you got treated to more
of that than I originally intended, but. So now you have a sense of the
amount of movement that we talk about when we talk about
a more active VR experience. We get to the point about why
the VR health industry exists. So after I started
noticing this was in fact something I thought
was exercise at home. I bought a heart rate monitor,
ended up writing an article. Just taking and sorting from
highest to lowest a number of different VR games that I
thought might be good exercise. And we published it. All right.
I published it. And abo8t 70% of the responses
were very positive. And about 30% of the responses,
I would say, were almost hostile, right,
I mean, almost angry. So these are a few examples of the types of
responses people get. Now a lot of times these
are paragraphs long and this is a snippet out of the middle but
the sentiment is the same. All right, so dude just
go to gym, get some air, meet some girls. Feel good about yourself for
a change. And then another example,
this poster is looking for permission to avoid exercise. Those here supporting his
delusion are harming him, not helping him. I know what it’s like to get
sweaty waving your arms around while using VR, and I know what
it’s like to exercise properly. Trust me, VR is not
a suitable substitute for exercise, all right? These are deeply ingrained
perspectives that people have. And then there’s one that
are actually are almost a little worse and in some respects which
are what I refer to as like, they’re the yes but or
calm down nobody is saying that. And these are comments that
tend to be left in response to somebody else’s comment
about VR is not exercise. And it tends to be
along the lines of, it’s better than nothing, like,
they’re gonna be lazy gamers anyways, might as well do
a little bit of activity, right? So the difference is going
from a sedentary life to being semi active. No healthy person is going
to lose 20 pounds playing Echo Arena, which is
a mid-range motion game. Good for him though. The reason I include this, and I was tempted but I couldn’t do
it because it would be wrong, replacing the echo arena with VR
because the rest of the comment before and after was certainly
about VR as a whole. And this idea that at best, VR
is gonna be like a light walk. It’s better, it’s standing up,
it’s moving around, it’s better than sitting down
but still not very helpful. And this kind of mentality is
actually really pervasive, it is very difficult
to get out of, right? So about two weeks ago the Wall
Street journal wrote an article about a series of gyms
that are opening up. One in Columbus
called VR Fit and a number of others that
are kind of exploring the space of having VR equipment
in regular gyms. And the original
article headline was, Working up a Real Sweat With VR. There was a video that was
attached to it with a headline, Can VR Tennis Get You Fit? And then how that ended up
getting reported under Reddit which is a lot of times
what I use as the proxy for what the community thinks is, Your VR Workout Won’t Get You
as Fit as You Think, right? So it started off as an article
about how VR might be a tool that can help people
promote exercise and it gets translated down
to almost hostile and challenging statement about how
you are delusional almost to be thinking that you
are gaining energy. And so, why this happens is that
we have spent years, years and years and years, telling people
this is the relationship between video games and health. Right, I love this poster. I dislike this poster and love
this poster at the same time. I think it summarizes a lot
of the things that we’ve been telling gamers and
the health community in general about video games which is,
it’s nothing, right? Do nothing, risk an early death. Games are bad. Games will kill you, right? And so this is a problem
nowadays, because for the first time with the
development of mixed reality, both the VR stuff now and what
AR will become in the future, this thing that is
incredibly powerful, that we engage in
on a regular basis, can suddenly become something
that’s gonna benefit us. And yet we have all this
kind of social construct about how to keep that thing
which beforehand was perceived as a negative from
doing more harm. And we now need to get people
to rethink that a little bit. I found surveys that have report
that on average the average American spends six hours
a week playing video games, which is substantially more than
the minimum recommended exercise requirements for
Americans by the US government. One of my favorite stats is that
more than 35% of high school students play three hours
a day after school. So they get off school, they come home play
three hours a day. The reason I think that’s
a really interesting stat, is the reason I know
that stat is because it was collected by the Center for
Disease Control. When they are doing a study on
the things that cause you to be at risk for
early preventable death. And they identify video game
playing as one of predictive characteristics, and so
they ask that question. So we are deeply, deeply
entrenched on one side of things and then we have this cool and
interesting technology that’s coming along
that can change that. And we need to figure
out how to combine them. Yeah, go ahead.>>Did those numbers, I presume
that those numbers include mobile phone games,
like the games on your phone?>>I don’t actually
have the stats on that.>>And I’m curious to see was
there an increase in that number, if you know, over time? Because it seems like
the availability of video games right now is
also people use games as a time waster between
tasks or whatever. And so I’m curious whether
that’s reflected in that number, or is it really
sedentary sitting down, I’m playing a game for an hour. It might have an impact,
actually.>>I don’t know. I know the study was done
around 2003, sorry, 2013, 2014.>>That’s definitely in this.>>So there is definitely,
it is very possible. Another kind of component to
that, which I think is really interesting, is there’s been
some studies on how Pokemon Go has impacted how
much people walk. And I don’t have referential
numbers off the top of my head, but it was a substantial
increase that you had to look at somebody’s walking distance
before installing Pokemon Go versus after. And you clearly saw an increase
in the amount of physical activity that was going on. So I don’t know about
the mobile part of. So moving along, so
talk about in a second, turning this over to Dr. Kern. So just out of curiosity,
going back to my 100 hours of Audioshield, and whether or
not it was actually exercise. This isn’t going to be
a surprise considering the fact that the title of this talk was
talking about the 150 million calories that have been
burned in Audioshield. But yeah, Steam spy reports that
roughly 693,000 hours as of like two months ago when
I collected the data, having played by the Steam
community in Audioshield. And even if you take it from
a very conservative standpoint, if you say things like, well,
I think 25% of those total hours is somebody just leaving it
on the floor and going and getting lunch. And an additional 25% of those
hours is somebody browsing the menu, which is a lot more
than people actually browse the menu when you
watch them play. You still end up looking
at the average burn in our studies in Audioshield at
the moderate intensity levels. And multiplying that out equals
more than 152 million calories. The upper end, if you’re
a little less conservative, is a range of 250
million calories. For comparison, the 150s is
equivalent of running to and from the moon 4.8 times, also several hundred thousand
hamburgers avoided eating. [LAUGH] And so what I think
is fascinating about this is that we might be
inadvertently building one of the largest tract exercise
communities in the world. This is one game out
of an ecosystem. And I think it is totally
possible that in five years, this could be so
much larger than it is in terms of calories burned
without the community ever really thinking of itself
as a community of exercisers. Yeah.>>Based on those
previous stats, I think that averages out to
about 200 calories per hour. Is that right?>>I don’t know off
the top of my head.>>But just doing simple
division of the total number of hours played and
the total calories consumed, that seemed to be about
200 calories an hour.>>A little less than that for
Audioshield. That’s a little high.>>Okay.>>So there’s also two
components there, so you’re right. That’s on the lowest intensity. So a lot of times when
the subjects came in, they were not familiar
with Audioshield. It’s a skill-based game. This is actually something that
I expected to come up in the Q and A afterwards, which is how
do you actually go out and figure out how to rate a game? When do you rate a game
that changes experiences? How much experience do you let
the players have before your rate them? So that was the average
of inexperienced players in the study. I can tell you that my own
personal, like when I play, when I hook myself up to
the metabolic cart, or when I am hooked up to the metabolic cart,
it actually produces the highest calorie burned per hour of any
of the systems we’ve tested, including being competitive with
uphill competitive mountain biking or
like the Tour de France.>>So roughly how many
calories per hour [CROSSTALK]?>>So I don’t want to say. But I mean, we can go and
I can look it up and get back to you on it. I just don’t have it
off the top of my head. I don’t wanna say
the wrong thing.>>No, for what that was,
it would average about 150.>>Okay.>>Yeah.>>All right, so this is where
I then turn it over because I’m not the one best qualified to
talk about how to do this. So, Dr. [INAUDIBLE].>>Thanks, Aaron. Okay, so the question was
asked a little bit earlier. How do we assess this? So this is how we do it. It was very interesting. I found it interesting anyways, when Aaron first addressed me
and asked if there was any way we could actually
quantify exercise. And I said, well, sure. Yeah, all we gotta do is hook
them up to a metabolic cart and measure their
oxygen consumption. And then, I guess, being in
the area of exercise physiology, I assume everybody knows that
that’s how you do these things. But no, not everybody does. So what we ended
up saying to do, maybe we don’t have
that any more. There we go, this is kind of
a picture showing you what happens when we bring
somebody into the lab. And these are some students, that’s Dulce who you heard
talking a minute ago. This was data that we collected
for her master’s thesis, and other faculty and folks who are
demonstrating the whole thing. Here is a mask. Putting that on, we will
collect all of your oxygen and all of your CO2. And we can quantify how
many breaths you take, what the volume of air you move. And then that is hooked up to
a metabolic cart that actually will tell you the percentage
of oxygen and the percentage of CO2
in both the incoming, we know what room air is,
but on your expired side. So we did that and
then added the HTC VIVE goggles, which you can see over here on
Angelina, on top of that, and had them play the games. And we did this for 41
different individuals, 21 guys. [MUSIC] And 20 women. So we looked at three
different games. [MUSIC] As the already star of the show,
Audio Shield. Holopoint, which as you can
tell, is an archery game. And you’ve got things coming
at you, and you gotta duck and go around and be aware. And then the last one there, the
big caloric expenditure event is the Thrill of the Fight, which
you can see is a boxing game. You kinda see what’s
going on here. So you’re ducking,
getting out of the way. You’re throwing punches. And that one ended up
being the one that really got people going. So before we did this, we actually measured them
first on a treadmill, exercising classically doing
what is called a VO2 max test. So if any of you’ve
ever done that and have a familiarity with
what kind of a thing. If any of you have ever had
a heart attack, they make you do these things that they
keep at a very low key. Looking at VO2 max is one of
those things that we look at for someone’s overall
cardiovascular fitness. It is considered
the gold standard. And if you’re hooked up
to a metabolic cart, then you get to do all
those measurements as well. Not just looking at
the max heart rate but also looking at the amount
of oxygen you can consume. So we did that first for
every one of these subjects and had a benchmark. This is what their
max capacity is. Then we threw them up on those
three games a couple of days later after they revamped
from the max test, and measured the same things. And then we were be able to say
what percentage of that maximal capacity they were working at
for each one of these games. This is an example, the kind of printout you’d
see on the metabolic cart. So this is starting out,
and this is Aaron’s data. Since he had a copy of
that on his own thing, it was easy to put
the slide in here. This is him playing Audio Shield
that’s been on testosterone, its been ramped up. He’s played Audio Shield for so
long the regular game is not, so he’s bumped it three and
four times. So he’s way up here on Audio
Shield, which you’ll find on the next couple slides,
is one of our lower-rated games. And then the other two,
we didn’t actually quantify in this study, but it is-
>>Knockout League.>>Knockout League,
which is a very popular game. So we had him exercise for
ten minutes, then rest for five, get back close to what
his resting metabolic rate was, not quite,
still left over from playing. Play a second game, and
we looked at the average score in the last five
minutes of the game. So they got up and into what we call in
the exercise a steady state. So you don’t wanna do things
when things are all in transition. You want them to be
at a nice constant. Even though this game you’re
moving around and doing stuff, if you were able
to maintain that, then we’d say that’s the
metabolic cost for that period. And then he came back down and
rested again, and then turned around and did
the same thing back and forth. On your left-hand side,
VE is ventilation. RF is respiratory frequencies,
so number of breaths. So it’s a breath
by breath system collecting every single one. And then on the other panel
we’ve got oxygen consumption, or VO2, and then VCO2. So from those things we could
actually calculate what kind of fuel you’re using
when you exercise. So here is the compiled data
from Dolsey’s thesis, actually. Looking at rest values, Thrill
of the Fight, Audio Shield and Holopoint, those three games
that you saw people dancing around and doing on the screens. And we put all of the data
together, separated out men and women, those who had been gamers
and consider themselves gamers versus people who had never
done any gaming before. It’s the first time
they ever came in, just to see if there was some
big difference between the two. In general, the results were
pretty much the same between everybody in that Thrill
of the FIght was by far the highest oxygen consumer
for any one of the populations. Then Audio Shield was the
lowest, in the white bar, and lastly Hollowpoint was
was kinda up and down. That’s more of a skill game
doing this archery thing and getting it to go. And people are laughing a lot
because they’re missing things and it’s coming back at you and
all of those things. And in particular, if you look at the differences
between the gamers versus the non-gamers, those things. But the energy expenditure is
up there, 10 to 15 on average. The error bars are there, but
10 to 12 kcals per minute. Yeah?>>Is the fact that the female
consumptions are lower than males a natural
expected thing?>>Mm-hm.
>>Okay, so it’s just physiological?>>Yeah, kcals per minute is
a calculation that’s done on liters of oxygen per minute. So we usually look at
everything in relative terms. The previous slide had
millilitres of oxygen per kilogram of body weight,
so it’s a relative term. But to get the calculation
into kcals, you have to go back to just absolute liters
to then multiply it out. And since women are usually
smaller than men, we end up with a smaller
number of calories. Good question. It’s one of the questions
I use on most of my exams. You have to figure out,
why would the women be less? We can change that into the kind
of measurement that Aaron was talking about,
metabolic equivalence. Trying to put this into terms
that people will understand and talk about multiples
of resting metabolism. So these are called METS in
the exercise physiology world, metabolic equivalence. And they have a range. The American College of Sports
Medicine has set all of these things up, and given whatever
those numbers come out to, they have qualifications. That’s vigorous exercise
if it’s something between 7.5 to 10 METS. And that’s where Thrill
of the Fight landed. If it’s between 4.5 to 7, then that’s considered
moderate exercise. So this would be exercising five
to seven times your resting metabolic rate. In numbers, that equates
to 3.5 milliliters of oxygen per kilogram of
body weight per minute. So if you have four of those,
you’re up to 14. Five, 17.5. Most of the people that
we saw in the study, young college-aged individuals, had V02 maxes in the area
of the high 30s to mid 50s. So these guys were exercising
in a pretty good range, 50, 60% of their
maximal capacity, which would quantify them
into the vigorous category. The last thing that we did
in the study was actually ask people if they thought
they were exercising. And if they were, what level did
they think they were exercising? Were they exercising really
hard, was it mild exercise? How would you compare that? So this is just the subjective information that you
get from the person. Even though we measured them
as exercising on a vigorous, based on their metabolic data. Even during Thrill of the Fight,
the numbers that we got, all participants males, females, gamers, non-gamers, they thought
they were exercising moderately. They were sweating
like pigs out there. And the whole thing,
it’s getting very nasty. And but no, as far as they were
concerned, they were having fun. They were having a good time. And even though they were
doing this, the best was no, that was light. That wasn’t like I was
out running in the hills. Yeah.>>Do you have data for
in comparison and what they are rating of running,
sprinting, swimming are?>>Sure, yeah, most of
that data is very old and all published stuff. Are you talking about
the metabolic cost data, VO2?>>So ratings and proceedings.>>Yeah, yeah.>>Their own ratings.>>In their own ratings,
when they do the max test, the thing I was talking
about on the treadmill, where they’re going to
their maximal capacity, you ask them at every stage
before you go up, where are you? And it’s a scale. It’s called the Borg Scale,
named after Dr. Borg. Who created it in the 60’s that
goes from six to 20, and it actually correlates very highly
to what your heart rate is. People never knew that but
that’s how he made the scale. And so you start of,
you’re walking and so forth, but how do you feel on a scale
of nothing to I’m gonna die. And they’re pointing,
seven at the beginning, and the next stage they go,
that’s a light workout, nine. Then you get to the moderate
where there’s now jogging at a fairly good pace and they’ll
say, yeah, that’s hard exercise. And then you get up
another couple of stages, and all of a sudden they’re
done here at 18, 19. And when they get
close to the 19 to 20, we’re looking at all the
metabolic markers and we know. So we have their own perceived
exertion for that activity. But for this activity,
when they’re doing it, based on that familiarity
with the board scale. Those were the numbers they
gave us so nobody gave us any numbers higher than 14 for
how hard they were working. Even though their oxygen
consumption was very close to what their maximal capacity was.>>So their bodies are
experiencing the same thing, but their minds are experiencing
completely different things.>>That would kind
of be our premise, at least it looks that way.>>Something like distraction, or->>Yeah. Exactly, you’ve got your mind
doing something else, and you don’t even realize that
you’re really exercising.>>Yeah, I think there’s also
another field of health research in VR, and it’s going
about pain management. So what they found is that
burn victims who have to have dressings changed
three times a day. It’s very difficult form of pain
to manage because you can’t just generally drug yourself up the
entire time and local anesthesia can too powerful, and so it’s
historically been difficult one. And so they’ve found that
there’s a reduction of perceived pain as somebody’s in
VR when that drape and bandages is being changed. And I think it’s probably,
whatever the mechanism is, I think probably some
of the mechanisms, it’s the perception of
level of discomfort. And if your brain is engaged
in something else or again, I don’t know the mechanism. But if you are not paying
attention to it somehow, it seem to translate and I’m hesitant
to name numbers off of it. But I was actually just reading
an article the other day that found that the pain
reduction has been self reported by the patient as being
stronger than meta-morphine for VR treatments.>>Yeah, there’s a gentleman
who’s actually doing that up at UCSF. And he contacted me when he saw
some of the articles that have come out in the newspaper and
everything else, and said, can we work
together on these things? But we’re looking at
the exercise component, but I understand exactly where
the idea is coming from. So those were really
interesting findings, as far as the first time we’d actually
quantified, or tried to quantify the results of using some
virtual reality for exercise. So here is, using again that
metabolic equivalent score for different activities,
and these are things, again, that are published data. People have quantified the cost
of vacuuming the floor, quantified the cost
of washing your car. There’s tables of data for
activity. People wear activity trackers,
and then collect oxygen consumption. And so what we have,
kinda highlighted there, on the red bar is the games
that we’ve looked at so far. We’ve looked at a number
of other ones, and here was for
a Wii Fit came into play. So these guys are already miles
above where Wii Fit had gotten. And I think,
as Erin would probably say, one of the nice things is,
most of these games, you can change as your
skill level changes. You don’t have to go out and
buy a new thing. It’s kind of an added bonus
to the whole prospect. Yeah.>>Yeah, and just because the question
came up earlier, this particular number was from
the higher intensity levels of?>>That were, yeah,
his own data.>>Fruit Ninja is the VR
version, not the phone version?>>Correct.>>Okay.
>>Which is exactly like the phone version, except for
you have swords in your hand.>>[LAUGH]
>>So again, that’s our contention
is that maybe this is not really perceiving that
they’re exercising as much. And also maybe they’re having
fun and maybe they’ll come back and do it again, whereas a lot
of times that’s not the case. So one of the things we have
tried to do, and we’ve only done it once, but we’re gonna
do it again this Friday. On the San Francisco
State Campus, just recently a new facility,
the wellness center was built. Yeah?>>Have you encountered for
the novelty effect? In other words, half a million
people are with these things, because->>Does it wear off?>>Does it wear off, right?>>They haven’t
collected that much data, the only person I
can talk to is him. And it doesn’t seem to wear
off with him because he’s->>I think it’s a well known effect also in gyms, right? That you start off, you’re
motivated, you get on a program. And then like going the second,
the fifth, and about two months later down
the road, [CROSSTALK].>>Compliance is a huge,
huge issue.>>I don’t have data for
that, right? But that is actually the entire
premise of the questions about whether or not this is actually a more
effective form of exercise. And is the basis for when I
said, for myself at least, that the VR has been the most
effective exercise I’ve ever included in our own is because
I’ve continued to use it. I think everything has
that fall off, right? And I actually compare that same
curve to my Xbox and my PS4, which is when I buy a new game
I will play that game a lot in the first few weeks and
then over time, I’ll play it less and
eventually it’s reduced to zero. The differences between that and
my exercise equipment is that it resets every time
I buy a new experience. And so, possibly, the one of the most powerful
things about VR is not so much that it’s possible to get a
variety of exercises out of it. But that it has an incredible
diversity in types of experiences you can choose from. And if I could pay 50 bucks
a month and buy a new game and that would keep me interested in
going to the gym quote-unquote, in a way that I have not been
historically interested in doing. I would find that to
be an amazing value. And so, the hypothesis is that, that’s what we’re
moving towards. It is not there yet
that we will eventually, this technologies will develop
into this tools that solve so many of the issues that keep you
from exercising on a regular basis, that being one of them
>>I was wondering how it compares to some of the more
social forms of exercises like->>Spin class?>>[CROSSTALK] And spin classes,
and things that where they don’t have just internal motivators,
they’re externally motivated. There’s a coach kinda yelling
just a few more hills or whatever, right? And the social component of or
the dance component and some of the dance exercises must
be something like that as well. So it’s an interesting one too.>>Which helps you to get
more engaged into it.>>[CROSSTALK] But also probably
has the similar effects where you’re focusing on the music and
focusing on the thrill of the experience,
whatever that might be. And you might actually rate your
level of exercise similarly lower on aggregate, than if
you’re just like on a treadmill running, and your mind is
focused only on running.>>Correct.>>You just wanna shoot yourself
cuz you don’t like running.>>Yeah.
>>Yeah.>>Exactly.>>We have a concept
that we refer to, that we talked about recently is
the painless minute of exercise. That in a lot of ways what
I’m searching for and I think a lot of people
are searching for is that moment when
you’re exercising and you’re not thinking
about the exercising. And the different
types of exercise have a different percentage
of painless minutes. So you give me a treadmill
without a TV, the amount of time, minutes I spend thinking
about running on the treadmill is pretty high, especially at
the end of it when I’m tired. You give me with a TV and a highly interesting Netflix
show, it’s a higher number and percentage of the minutes
are painless because I’m engaged in that. But I think in a way with the
potential of the VR stuff is. It has the potential to be
the highest number of painless minutes possible
in an experience. If you find something
you are engaged in, that also makes you perceive as
less exercised, you play longer.>>I think it would probably
compare well to group sports. If you end up playing soccer, you are pretty much continuously
sprinting and running, but your focus is definitely not
on sprinting and running. And you are not
thinking about this, I mean yes in retrospect you’re
thinking about it as exercise, but it’s about let’s win,
let’s score, let’s blah blah. Good [CROSSTALK]
>>You’re distracted in some way.>>Yeah.
Well, Yeah. It’s a game and
you’re there with your team. I don’t know. There’s other components to it. [CROSSTALK]
>>Sure.>>You’re not there to run,
you’ve get the ball and score a goal, right?>>Sure.
>>But running is a consequence of it.>>Mm-hm.>>Well explain to me why people
don’t come back and defend. [LAUGH] I’m sorry what was that?>>Explain why people don’t
come back and defend in soccer. [CROSSTALK]
>>Cuz they like to score goals. [LAUGH].>>Stand there. [LAUGH] They don’t score a goal. [INAUDIBLE] they stay there.>>Exactly. [CROSSTALK] [LAUGH]
>>The novelty aspect is definitely a good one. And that we did ask some folks. When we went to this, this is kind of the next
phase of what we’re going to. Beside continuing to rank other
games and give them ratings so that way folks can, and
on the VR institute website. If you’ve created a game,
you can give us that game and we’ll rate it, if we see it’s gonna be a
valuable fitness kind of a game. And give it a ranking, give it
a badge with a number on it. But we also wanted to find
out if we can do some fitness classes with this, and
would that be something that people would be
interested in doing? And so last Wednesday evening,
we took the unit down to this brand new health center
that we got on the state campus that we just opened
a month and a half ago. So unfortunately we don’t even
have any great pictures up at their website but the architectural
drawing of the thing. But this is right inside the
foyer and we set up the whole VR headset and just asked
students as they walk by. Hey, have you ever tried VR,
would you like to see if this is any exercise, just do it
for five minutes or something. And nobody was doing
it at first, and the next thing you know,
everybody was in line and they all wanted to see
what was going on. And so as a result they did. And the kind of cool thing was,
there’s a circular staircase. It goes up to the second floor. People just started standing
around here and watching and seeing what was going on. And next thing you know,
here’s the line forming out and they all wanted to
see what it was like. Very exciting. The folks there we had to
convince them a little bit in the gym, if we
>>[LAUGH]>>Were able to get this equipment here, would you guys be interested
in having these classes? Do you think the student
body would be interested? And sure enough they pretty
much said they were. We asked them some questions. Just kind of really brief
questionnaire, obviously. If it was available at your gym, how likely would it be that
you would come to VR class. If you look at the numbers here, the 29 out of the 37 that
actually had answered. And this is a combination
of data from place that actually is a VR gym,
fit gym, VR fit. And what we collected there
at the masseuse center. And so it’s promising to see
that they would do that. Other questions that of course
people like 24 hours or 24 fitness would wanna know how
much would you be willing to pay to come to a VR fitness class
and get that kind of data for them and they may actually help support
doing this kind of research. But that’s kinda where we
are at this point in time. And I’m glad you guys have asked
questions throughout the whole process but
if you have any more, please, we would be more than
happy to answer this.>>Stand back up again.>>Yes, stand on back up Pick
up any ideas,where would you see this kind
of stuff going. Or do you think, trying to
address the novelty aspect. I mean if we do this
as a fitness class, then obviously we’ll be able to see how many people come
back and come back again. And do you find this more
intriguing form of exercise than the classic forms of exercise.>>Yeah.>>I wonder how would
you scale these. So at the moment you’re
running on a steady game but there are potentially maybe
some games out there. You cannot run one of them,
can you scale these?>>We already started but
go ahead.>>So one of the things that
works in our favor in that case is that most VR games
are probably not really great candidates for exercise. So we’ve had to make a number
of assumptions in the ratings. And this is actually another
interesting thing that I mentioned earlier. How do you go about rating games
that might not be the same in the first 15 minutes versus
the last 15 minutes. And are so heavily
influenced by how you play, how you get you play like this
or are you punching at things? So one of the assumptions
we made is that the people who are interested
in the health rate, in the exercise rating are people
who are proactively looking for experiences that
are beneficial to them. So if a game is going to be
clearly rated as resting, it probably requires less
attention from us than if the game could be somewhere
between the walking or elliptical range and the peak. So right there, you get to
narrow your focus a lot. And then the second thing
is that we get to then take advantage of the fact that we
happen to be near a student body that’s engaged and interested
in this sort of stuff. And so we’re putting
together processes now where we have students come in, we get their baseline data, we
benchmarked that against heart rate data from a trusted meter,
monitoring device. Which they can send
home with them. And that way, if you have
a first generation game, somebody submits that you think
is likely to be high quality exercise but not sure, then we could have them do
a preliminary test at home. And if it qualifies,
we could have them come in and do a full metabolic test. And so
we can outsource a lot of it. And then really just
focus in detail on the->>Yeah we actually had really hoped that they were
gonna be, again last week we had a meeting for
students who were interested. And all the students who came
and thought this would be really cool because they did read on
the little caption that they would get these games to test
at home, free of charge. So that sells a lot
of games right there, interest right there, and
then there was pizza. So that, two things,
you do this for students. It’s wonderful. But they, of those people that
came in, only one of them has his own VR setup that we could
use for this study already. And we’re not gonna
buy them all, the whole headsets or
the computer. Yeah it’s there. Yeah.>>So with the boxing game for example if you were to
compare that to a multiplayer version where the opponent
is not a bot but is actually another human in another VR
setup maybe in a different room.>>Mm-hm.>>Do you expect either of your
core results to change, which is the number of calories burned
and the perceived pain level? I have not played those games,
you have.>>So I’ve actually thought
about that quite a bit. And the reason why is cuz I was
curious about why it is that the thrill of fight could
outperform in the metabolic score traditional boxing,
real world boxing. And my hypothesis on that is
that there’s a lot of other things you do in real world
boxing like trying not get hit [LAUGH] that you don’t have to
worry about nearly as much. There’s also positive
between rounds, there’s the,
>>Mm-hm.>>Might be broken up for a
period of time once it recovers. So I don’t know,
I would expect to be similar, maybe a little less. Because I think if you have two
players that are both humans, the cadence might be
slightly different, right? They might not both
constantly be doing this. You might jog around a lot more,
you might dodge more. I don’t know for sure if
that would be an increase or a decrease. I mean, a lot of times if you
wanna look at this a different way, if you record somebody
playing Thrill of the Fight and how many times they duck. And you count each one of
those as a squat which they essentially are. You can start saying, okay, how many squats is this going to
be in a given exercise period? And would that go up or
would it go down If you’re fighting a real human,
I don’t know. I think largely comparable
if two were equally skilled. I will say-
>>Yeah we haven’t done any of those multiplayer games. But students have commented and
I think that would be one of the cool things doing
a fitness class. If we had these students
in a room this size and their play area is set up and
have them playing a, Aaron mentioned one game that’s kinda
like a capture the flag game. And two people are working
together, buy they got to dodge behind this, go around that and
all these other kinds of things. I think it could be really
exciting, fun, and->>If I can, to add onto that, so your comment earlier
about what are the, VR can be what you make it
in a lot of ways, right? And the type of exercise
experience you give to a player is widely variables depending on
what the player wants to do, and how you kind of engineer
that experience. In this game, will the social component
drive people to try harder and get higher exercise? I think absolutely. In some games, will
the competitive version of it be less, because they’re trying
to spend more time strategically aligning themselves? Probably sometimes, right? I think with
a computer-controlled player you can do some really,
really cool things, right? For example, there’s a group
that I work with down in San Francisco, and they’re just
now starting on what’s called a game that we’re referring
to internally as Dungym, so Dungym with a G-Y-M, gym. And the whole purpose of
Dungym is really to build a game that is fun,
compelling, the level up, that’s multiplayer cooperative. You can go
dungym-questing together. I would love a world where I can go to a gym with my friends
to go raid a camp, right?>>[LAUGH]
>>Sold it.>>Yeah, there’s a lot of. I remember a long time ago when
I was at a conference once when I wrote in the game industry
where I was talking to a researcher who
researched game addiction. And it was surprising
to me cuz one of the things he told me is that
game addiction doesn’t exist. And which is odd
considering he studied it. And he said we misunderstand
a lot of times what game addiction is. If you take out the games that
have no multiplayer component to it, there’s very little
evidence that people have the classic game addiction
of going into the basement and excluding the outside world and
not having the social contacts. So where you find game addiction
is really much more like Internet addictions where people
replace their real world outside connections with in game
real life connections. So they have friends in the game
in lieu of having friends in real life. And this speaks to
the incredible power of kind of these social networks, right? And obviously you don’t want to
necessarily addict people to a game through social networks. But if you can figure out
a way to use that power to lead to healthy lifestyles,
that’s really powerful. With dungym, and
with other games, right? One of the key pillars of its
design is throughout the design process we measure for caliber. So let’s say you have a monster,
and he’s big and he’s designed to take two and a
half to three minutes to defeat. And he’s got points on him
that you have to hit and move around a lot and
we can calculate out. Okay, we expect you to burn 35
to 40 calories per monster. If you want to do
an excercise routine we’ll generate a dungeon for you
that can hit a certain target. Also, if you wear
a heart rate monitor, which can then feedback
to the server and inform the game, you can target
heart rate bands, right? So the monsters can be harder or
easier depending on what you need as it’s interactive and
reactive design. And then also you can do
things like progression. Say you wanted to have a 12
week exercise program, well you have a dungym
that’s 12 levels deep. You have progression of
power ups and tools and all the various things you
have in a regular game but you’re crafting that in
the community experience. And after awhile that’s not
everybody’s experience, but there will be people who will
really, really enjoy that. And there’s gonna be a variation
of that, I think, for lots of different people,
and that’s the power of it.>>Yeah.
>>What do you think about the chance for injury with
a lot of repetitive motion? And I think with so many VR
games coming out, I expect there to be PC gaming nowadays, it’s
gonna be a lot of quick games. The developers won’t have time
to study the physiology or the ergonomics of the movement,
and perhaps you have really
good chance of injury. No guidance on movements,
where people just flick things like Wii, they have the wrist
injuries with a lot of flicking. So what do you think
about that and how do you-
>>No it’s a great question. Thank you, I don’t think
that anybody has studied any physiology associated
with the games. From what little review of
literature, there are a couple people that have looked at heart
rate during the different games. And you’re right about the Wii
Fit getting injuries because they were doing repetitive
motion kind of activities. I haven’t in the games
that we’ve looked at in the lab anyway,
there hasn’t been any real repetitive motion kind of things
that people would go through even if they were playing for
several hours. Aaron did mention when we were
driving over here about a friend who did have a mild heart
attack because he played for four hours straight and
he really should not have done that, and
nobody told him not to. But it’s kind of like
you have to say, okay, maybe we’ve got to put a
disclaimer on some game that you could really get yourself going. If you’re at risk for
disease and you have this maybe you need to
get your physician to clear you before you actually start using
this as a mode of exercise, just like any other
kind of exercise.>>This is not related to
the natural physiology, but it’s more about
the psychology of labeling games with marking them
as strenuous versus not. You actually feel like that
you might inadvertently cause some games not to be popular
if you label them super strenuous, right? Because most people look at the, most people are not
exercise nuts, right? And they are looking for
the game, they might not want to have
a game that’s super strenuous. And like you said, most of these games actually
have ranges, right? They have a beginning level
to the ultimate level. So in some sense labeling
something as strenuous might be a negative signal
rather than a positive signal. And I’m wondering if you
considered ranges rather than a label? Like this scheme varies from
whatever easy to moderate or whatever, rowing to swimming,
I don’t know.>>Well the badges
have a small range. It’s just one to two,
three to four, because that’s kinda what we saw
on the games that we’ve got, so there’s a small
range in there. I don’t know if we have
a little disclaimer down at the bottom-
>>We do.>>Saying it could,
yeah, I’d forgotten.>>Yeah, I will say so this is again one of those
sort of philosophical, and I see you trying
to move us along.>>Yes, it’s time to go.>>Sorry Mark.>>But, again, it goes back
to some of the assumptions. I actually think there’s
a bit of a selection bias or self-selection process
will happen. The people who are interested
in the ratings at all will be people who are looking for
games that are higher intensity. And if you’re not interested
in it then that’s probably not the characteristic
you’re keying off of. I don’t think that there’s
much downside to a game kind of publicizing to the
people who are interested in it that it can be good exercise and
the people I think who, it’s kind of like ESRB
ratings now, right? If I care about content those
ratings could theoretically distract, guide me towards or
away from getting content, but I haven’t looked at one of
those ratings in a long time. Because I’m not the demographic
anymore that carries.>>But around that, I actually
think that ratings matter a lot. Movie industry goes through
hoops to get a particular, not get an R rating, right?>>Yes.
>>And they’ll modify the movie and the storyline
to not get an R rating. And that might actually, down
the road, you might actually have games or game designers
that are designing games specifically not to be super
strenuous, to get it not. I mean I think that’s
a great problem to have.>>Yeah, I was gonna say, if it ever gets to the point
that enough people care about exercise in VR,
that that’s a problem, then that’s a huge step forward. That’s an interesting discussion
that we can have offline. But I think when you
inform people about what they’re looking for
designers or consumers they get to figure out
what they’re looking for, right? And so I don’t think
there’s anything negative about a designer
saying they target. In fact, I would actually argue
you absolutely as a designer. If you’re in VR and you don’t
know the difference between designing a game to exhaust
you in 30 minutes versus one you can play for an hour and
a half without exhausting you. You are kind of overlooking
a big characteristic of VR development, or AR development. You should have in your
mind your target goals, because they can be opposites. Designing a game for
good exercise is not necessarily a good thing if you’re designing
a game that’s different. So anyways I’ll.>>Okay, thank you very much for
your talk. I think it sparked many
conversations here, we will take them offline now. Thank you also for
the people who were probably on their offices
watching your talk. And I think you’re going to
be around during the day, so other people can catch
up with you guys. Okay, thank you.
>>Thank you.>>Thank you very much.

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